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Welcome to the media podcast I'm at ticket on the show today the co-founder of tortoise James Harding on slow new start-ups and paid my ship is coming.

How does it fit into the streaming Wars TV in the chief? Cat Lewis tells us and all the problems at the BBC we are England Strand the sign of things to come the Guardians Jim Waterson plus in the movie quiz we discover the old dogs learning new tricks and vice versa that's all coming up in this edition of the media podcast well this week, Craig got a promotion.

He's now at the top table working with but still for Cheryl and Mark at Facebook with the new title president for Global affairs also with a new job the BBC's form of Scotland to Sarah Smith I said she's relieved to be heading to America after injuring years of Ireland patriot.

You know it's bad with American discourse is seen as positive as someone has never had an impact on public.

The course is Rupert Murdoch the 1981 band that stopped him interfering with the editorial of the Times and Sunday Times has been lifted by Everyone's Favourite culture secretary Nadine dorries potentially the chance been used to combine the teams on those titles Disney plus you've added 11.8 million subscribers in the final quarter of last year taking the streams total to 130 million interestingly 45 million of which are from Disney plus hot star in Southeast Asia I've got Netflix still leads the pack with 222 million subs and finally agent Charles has won is 1.7 million pound battle with the taxman.

However.

It does mean that we now know he netted 6.1 million from.itv over his 3-years there and Jeremy today or two people never far away for a million-pound payday, First up welcome back at Lewis the founder and CEO of TV Indian nine lives Media on BBC Three

Hindi squad dates 2018/19 play this week, so if you missed it on Valentine's Day do TuneIn please find it even on iPlayer I get to work with incredibly creative people and that we all kind of just from a notion that comes up in a group meeting and it was actually Nicole had you Michael who's our production manager.

He said meeting want to be great to group dating.

It's what I used to do with my mates and so she's actually just got engaged now.

So it is it is that she did it but but basically if we thought yeah fantastic there isn't a great dating for my let's Create one.

Will that goes well for the success of all those datas and I guess Songs of Praise continues unabated.

Non-stop always there.

Yeah, that's right every week.

It's a pleasure to make we've got a fantastic team that I work with on that and fantastic presenters, so it's the one I've just had a wedding and go onto YouTube to find what's in the sound like they've been quite a few probably not sanctions clips of Songs of Praise for my workout recognise that him maybe there could be a media quiz one day absolutely anything better than that.

I'm pretty sure that we have created a list of wonderful things to consider for your way, so if you go onto a website, we've got some information to help you alone excellent.

I would I will do that also the else is the Guardian Media editor Jim Waterson hi Jim news in a flat about court cases this week.

We had New York Times but also a case closer to home involving Bloomberg what's been what's been going on what you're going to refer to?

This has really been bothering you seem to speak is zxc vs.

Bloomberg which is so hard to explain that it's quite hard sort of really get people to understand it, but fundamentally it comes down to the right to privacy vs.

The right to public and published a factual documents that are obtained which identifies us businessman, as being under investigation as part of a criminal probe the individuals never charged with anything the individual's ever arrested and that they have successfully after 6 years taking all the way to the supreme court and Supreme Court ruled that the right to privacy Trump's essentially the right to publish this information and so what that means is that it Harden's that Cliff Richard verdict from 2008 and means that it's much much harder for the

To report anything there is a potential criminal charge or when someone is our investigation which could lead to a criminal charge if they are not ultimate that sounds quite naughty, but it means that there is potentially a lot of get out for when there is alleged wrongdoing as part of an ongoing investigation and that that might make it harder for Bad Faith media companies to do scarola stories that particularly in financial journalism.

It makes it very hard and interesting place in the court said this guy's reputation and sort of damaging his reputation impacted his right to private life because it made people around anything less of it and that is is potentially very very worrying for the media a lot harder to report things does it worry you and your reporting you getting into court cases, it's also sort of will.

Undoubtedly benefit people with a lot of money and then that is the issue with the legal system at the moment you know but it took 6 years of fighting this and they still last is interesting the BBC didn't try and peel the Cliff Richard burdock, which could have overturned this president to a certain extent.

No, I mean the BBC Messed Up On the Cliff Richard thing when they ended up flying helicopter over his house because he was the subject of police investigation went absolutely nowhere and that has caused a lot of change is an increasingly.

It's privacy rather than label.

That is the big risk that Newsroom too worried off and that's quite hard to fight the law is moving in One Direction One Direction only at the moment.

I just think I wanted to say perfect television programmes as well because obviously although we all respect the fact that you know the police should have enough to charge somebody before it's it then becomes a

big news story in Sydney before you fly helicopters over somebody's house however, you know what it means is that in for example the whole area of love.

It does you know that everybody's Talkin at the moment.

Don't know about the tinder swindler.

That's a big no-no documentary on Netflix but it actually makes it hard to make is kind of programs cost a lot of the time on fortunately people aren't charged with those kind of cases because what's always sad is that I start a relationship with somebody and then you know they can persuade me to give the money.

It's actually very difficult even if they turn out to be a person who then can you know walks away is actually very difficult if you have given money within a relationship within an emotional relationship to ever get any kind of address even if you feel that you've been really excited and lie to you.

No have given that money effectively unwillingly in the long term.

I'm so it doesn't let you know it's been made it really difficult we used to do a series 4 Channel 5 cold.

And it was about you know what tablet series about people meeting goes on holiday and or women on holiday and getting in a relationship and then finding out actually they were been swindled, but it's really difficult the safety of those cases lead to charges in Leeds conviction programs and keeping an eye on them.

It was a footnote to last week's episode can occur during our Media quiz about the issues at the new Regent new strands at the BBC we are England continue to grow and stumbled across this story.

Maybe the instigator of part of it if people missed the show last week.

What has you're Googling your Google is caused lots of trouble for the BBC and the new regional opt out and play by a I was browsing the BBC Homepage while waiting for a call back on a different story in and just saw this thing about a crypto guy who had some pretty obvious questions about what?

Google reveal those questions really needed investigating and the BBC didn't seem to talk so that last week for the BBC pulling one episode of its new current affairs programme and then over the weekend episode of we are England after failing to note that they done a sort of amazing work on mental health and failed to notice Osted report from last summer that said kids were being left reluctant to eat as a result of the experience and words that would be sent them at that school is basically points to a load of compliance issues and a load of innocence that maybe this doesn't have the editorial oversight and the resources it needs to do the sheer number of programs that they're trying to eat on the budget that they've got and it is kind of worrying is it pointed all sorts of structural issues with the BBC

I can't you made loads of investigations programs like dispatches.

What do you make of these problems that I haven't read the evidence but it does sound system might be some compliance issues there however the principle of stopping making very regional programmes and using that money to make network is a really positive thing so the idea of creating This is England as opposed to having lots of kind of small regional programs around the country that nobody really watched is reflective of the way the modern Media is moving and it's really important for the BBC to keep up so for example.

I know that squad de casino Avenue group dating show has fitted from that change because the money that BBC England have use cos they have 50% funded squad dates and BBC3 have 50% fun to do it.

You know that program won't be me.

Chain, just haven't been sided upon by the BBC so what they're trying to do is use the money that they used to use regionally which you know programs that didn't get huge audiences and that had kind of you know staff that works on them for 1015 years and those staff you know who are very very talented and now able to kind of work on the kind of shows that we make it's just kind of it was just up and moved to update you know the BBC and bring it into line with the way that the television industry is moved Growing Pains of trying to do more with less have they got at the BBC got a rethink the scale of what they do otherwise they'll sort of face more of these issues.

What person of the BBC make more news programs than anybody else you know in the country and I used to be a BBC news report her and it sounds as if somebody some mistakes on one program.

It doesn't it doesn't mean or one Siri is it doesn't mean that the whole of the BBC needs to be criticised and analysed as a result because he knows certainly when I was making local play G and Newsnight those kind obviously every program.

It every news programme the BBC makes it takes incredibly seriously and doesn't usually make very many mistakes and criticised for us.

I think that you've got a problem here.

Why you've got rid of an investigative strangled inside out that for better or worse did some really weirdly public service journalism and you've got the series of panglossian profiles of community figures who turned out to not had rigorous journals and done on that you are 3 weeks into a series and two of the episodes of being pulled because of problems with the show.

That is not a good sign this isn't just some errors in and his report this is this really points to the and I started to talk to people who work on this program and people with flagging to me in advance for this coming to add that we're going to be potential issues because of the lack of staff and basically politicians cannot accept the BBC cannot do what they wanted to do with the money that it's got they're saying you got a cut the budget then cut the budget and then do my more regional programming because they think that matters and it gets them on it.

It's a complete mess you need the BBC basically Eva needs to accept can't do what it needs to do and just be frank with people.

I just don't see the point in putting out series that aren't up to scratch and just ruin the BBC reputation more angry with you, but that doesn't mean that inside out should have been changed.

It's just very kind of you know stick in the mud say or we can't move forward as an organisation.

We can't change the way we spend money.

We can't reflect the way the audience.

Because the reality is that one just lead to the BBC folding because it's got to reflect the way audiences of viewing and it's pointless having you know people all around the country.

You know literally just after 15-years building up the cost of pensions.

You know making programs that aren't investigative a lot of inside out wasn't investigative you know it was just it was just a nice kind of you know local documentary but not a lot of people watch them.

It's far better.

I think that you know that the way that there now spending the money through BBC England you know with companies like mine.

However.

They were forgot to get generation that they are doing right and they know that they will get it right OK well.

Let's move on it be if you want to keep it.

Keep an eye on over and consolidation corner we can see another Media brand or two it'll be retired by common CBS about to be rolled into one name a different one paramount can't why is spike on CBS become a paramedic and guess.

It's kind of better to have.

Brands, you know and whenever companies merge it sometimes takes a while to to then decide how they going to kind of you.

No show their their company to the world, but it does seem sensible to me.

I'm a big fan of working with them.

I think they're great company and you know if I think it is simpler in the UK the name TV Channel 5 gym in the battle of the streamers.

Where does paramount plus rate well in the UK no nowhere nowhere at all.

Yeah.

I'm still not on the card.

I know I see us companies belatedly realising that they need to launch around the globe and as it as a consumer.

I find it confusing as to what I'm going to get with what time mine doesn't really mean much in the UK so paramount plus launch is here and I don't write what's on this.

I don't really know what paramount show is and then you end up sort of trying to work out.

How does this?

My5 and things like that and I'll be honest you know I could try and overdue.

This is an industry analysis as a consumer.

I'm kind of at the limit of what I want to pay for in terms of streaming subscriptions and that's about the sort of standard 2 or 3 a month.

I'm willing to top up for and I don't really want to take on more just for the sake of some old South Park episodes or whatever what's on? What's on your list, what makes it say your Premier League Netflix which I have a love-hate relationship with I have NOW TV which has my favourite content but the single worst using play some anything and then so Amazon Prime but that's mainly for the free delivery and I sort of reluctantly tip into when they got a good film on ITV4 Plus

Can you have a look into any catch your eye I didn't but I suppose for me paramount.

I do always associate.

I do kind of have an idea about it.

Not a kind of music clear idea about how it will be distinctive from Netflix I couldn't agree with Jim on there, but but obviously for me.

I kind of do associated with sample with films with equally.

I don't know whether we would you know start paying more you know because we've got kind of Netflix Amazon Disney you know it's just start to adopt it Star Trek paramount plus with the home of all the millions of Star Trek series Sophia Star Trek fan.

That will be the strimmer to get at the moment, but it will it all move over to paramount plus it also where Ben flowers gone.

He's obviously be a Channel 5 Boss and now he sort of UK paramount plus you see any of his fingerprints on that UK launch.

I think he's I mean I think Ben's a genius first word with him right back in the 90s.

You know we work together on this morning.

So I've known them for a really long time and he can a genius then attach a genius.

I mean he knows what people go for it.

I think it is yeah, as I said.

I didn't manage to read the broadcast article but Star Trek you know I knew I had two 70s connotation.

Is it just does make me feel kind of woman are homely Concepts associated with my child one of the new series will be a sexy beast prequel.

That'll be on the list gym.

Do you think they've got to colour roll, everything into it all the MTV channel is Comedy Central the US shows you all of that to try and make a mark.

But then you just send up risking putting it all behind a paywall and unsubscribing and you've got to have 50800 thousand people in your struggling to really get the numbers up.

I mean I just wonder how many of these services really can survive on the fringes cos you got the strange thing that if you if you have one or two shows you basic become the why not just be the Star Trek subscription package and how fat is an add on to something else.

Why not just by the south part subscription package at the moment.

I just can't see how we end up with six or seven or eight sustain a mass market streamers because people just don't want to pay for all of them.

So you if you need to have the scale to make them profitable.

How do you get the scale of the market can't sustain that many if it's it's going to inevitably got to at some point Leeds cancellation.

Thanks both now until our future interview this week tortoise first went live as an online news site in April 2019.

Set down with co-founder James Harding he just raised another 10 million pounds for the self-styled slow news publication my first question was 3 years on is the business where did explain it to me? I don't know you can do a start-up and and know where you're headed especially if like me you've lived in big newsrooms in the ft the Times the BBC we started out the first year.

I couldn't quite see how you would do journalism that was original and investigative and forceful and audio.

I was so brought up in printing the written word it took some time to get down to be honest with you my colleague carey-thomas.

Who is the former editor of the Today programme on the BBC he was the one who from the start and then went back to come and join us together with her the two of them kept on pushing us to say look there is a real place for a different kind of journalism.

Podcasting and I think the biggest change is the biggest changes we originally thought we were designing news for the small screen and now we think overwhelmingly where people get it is in the transition away from text to audio is about what the markets into and where maybe money supporting that direction as well, or is it there's a gap there? Just suiting the people that you bought together and daughter.

So when we got started in 2018.

We spend the time really building the company and thinking it through and at that time.

We had three heresies that we held really dear one was that we would be a slow Newsroom was driving the news not breaking news the second was that we would have been an open Newsroom that we were going to do the same for our members with our members and the third was that we wouldn't be interested in what happens next we weren't going to have that classical journalistic thing which is just you know we do the story in the world news on.

The way that you would stay true to that.

I think what we found was that there are trusting in normal number of words out there on the internet and that there are more and more all the time and go to create a journalism that has a real impact.

Yes, it's certainly true that we discovered real scale in audio.

We found our audience growing and I think you know you mention the fact that we just completed the fundraise part of the reason.

I think we will have to get a new group of investors behind us in addition some for existing ones was acting they can see that there to keep on growing older 42 multiplied audience.

So yes, there's a group of people out there who takes a different approach to try to understand the world, but it was also away that you could we have the start it was telling in line with the interests and business.

We had four journeys to begin with I don't think that the

The way you tell stories has no impact on the way in which the stories you choose and the nature of your journalism so we realised that I'm trying to figure it out as we go your Beginnings of see that was over Kickstarter type approach getting all of Interest you remember organisation looks like probably around 100000 paying members maybe I should have paid membership is just £50 and €55,800 sign up in one Way Or Another they might be a trial if they might get a newsletter, but I think that the the numbers that we look at in terms of how do you get to a place that you have a really sustainable different kind of new business a different media company is that paid membership our members are really quite different some of them essentially pay themselves some of them are paid for by the company is some more than all paid for by others.

What we really keen on doing is it open on use its informed by our members for that to work you want to have a real mix of people and so that's how that about mixed together membership for that through patreon or through subscriptions like apples platform.

The supporter is more than just someone wanting to bus to pabel Bhai into what what you're trying to do.

That's reflective your members or do you can get people who want to read Matthew d'ancona articles online? Do you think they're types of the cause of your things like sinkings is there to bring people in and actually person you really want to speak to his Katie vanneck Smith who's my co-founder who came for the Wall Street Journal dowjones, and we work together with the times.

We've taken the times from free to.

Hayden digital and will also that time and I'm really interested photos from the start was how do you create a Newsroom where people could come and hottest place in different ways, so some of them are coming really just listen and learn to consume the journalism.

You're doing some of them actually like the fact that we really tried to do with The Newsroom that is welcoming.

That's open so they can come and be a part of it out later today.

We hold our weekly open use meeting the thing was trying to do is figure out.

How best to cover the pandemic in the UK what did we learn from covid and how the UK performance compared with the rest of the world rather than having a meeting behind closed doors.

We seem to have it openly with your members or is it giving them an insight into an insight into it's absolutely both of those things in that.

You actually keeps us honest to way of making sure that people are looking at the way you're working and asking asking all having a point of view on what you're doing, but it's absolutely and at its best improved by and sometimes even initiated by the thoughts experiences views, you've had from members and when we go back through the sum of history the journalist and the frost has worked it often been thinking that we've heard about a look at this look at private Media groups highlights affecting politics in the UK or you know someone came to our Newsroom and talked about the way in which their University have responded to a sexual assault and look at campus Justice even in the stories that were telling that come from that's a traditional sources part of the value of the thing is helping us to understand.

Is this an edge case is it something more systemic and often we hope that gets beyond just telling the story but thinking about what happens next I suppose that people come to the people coming to be a part of it people who want to contribute to building building so that's a really crucial part of what we doing editorially and the thing that could you have if you like the guarantors of your independence and integrity journalism also be the cornerstone of what you're doing commercially because the members of the whole business, but they are the cornerstone of 3 years out of a traditional corporate environment very well tonight to take me on your old job at the BBC I'm sure there's any tips is done loads of things around the world.

I guess I'm always interested in whenever you start a new job.

This is you have to learn about an organisation or things like that you realise that perhaps.

She's wish someone would have told you in advance anything you.

Deborah in advance to help her hit the ground running about the BBC I never worked in TV radio and turn moving to broadcasting the whole change from the actually I went to see Deborah who was then working in the States in your friend BC to get some advice, so I think it'll be a little bit from now doesn't need an appointment for BBC it's a fantastic thing about the BBC managed to persuade her to leave ITN which wasn't easy because you know she breathing life into ITN and and that's organisational getting a new running speed so the first problem is she will just need any advice from me and the second Wars that said when she was appointed thought to myself.

You know what they're a whole bunch of things that on reflection and wish I'd done.

Earlier and I'm an essential note that shares my great wisdom of what I should have time and when I sat down to write this text and put it in the end thought that the room with with the you and me is what I'd basically said everyone when they start a new job which is those people who say.

Go gently listen hard for 6-months 12 months until he really get your feet under the desk and then make your decisions.

Don't do that listens to what you think of your first 46 weeks those instance you have about an organisation and its cultural ways of working are more likely than not what you really think about the place and you should pursue those really really go off to them and you know the beauty of the BBC is it's the most extraordinary news organisation in the world and it can reach everyone and everywhere and so you really have the route to go and do something that's very impactful Harding and each week our patrons getting exclusively provide with our guests this week is no exception so if you want to him or tortoises strategy, what makes a tortoise story and the role of washing lines.

Just signed up at patreon.com Media pod and if you are signed up because get our recent chats.

All about sustainable production with albert and the lowdown on the recent Radio 2 just signed up at patron.com Media pod and will be back with more meeting use and of course.

I'll weekly quiz after this hello.

I'm hasty and this is the brand new Radio Academy podcast to tell us all about Project things been working on stage and this is exactly the same but on the radio episode with Jack Daniels and her producer Alex told talking about the any show on Greatest Hits radio to be the first start yeah.

Academy podcast with me roasting hasty on wherever you get your podcasts from the media podcast recording software Riverside and in turn they support the making of this show and yes what I'm sure.

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Some things just had some play to your day.

Is it pops out of the toaster dancing down the street to your favourite playlist sparkly boots to the shop and best of all speaking you pink scratchcard, please.

Thank you add some played a scratch card from the National Lottery big celebrate summer with Mia take it funny.

That's all around the world began featuring the timer songs as ABBA

It's the world's funniest musical Mamma Mia at the Novello Theatre you already know yet.

What do you get if you cross the Irish sea with Irish Ferries floor in the back room full of goodies hello duty-free and no kidding a truly warm welcome aboard the whole gang very.com and see travel differently terms and conditions apply welcome back gym and cats are still with me problems at Channel 4 News weather use of nda.

Non-disclosure agreements on employees has been questioned by former culture minister.

Been used for a channel for two people who've had employment to see it says more about HR issues, but obviously there's the issue around obviously Channel 4 delay reporting around nba's in the use of them particularly in relation to Harvey Weinstein a great look so be in an attempt to link it to the incoming BBC News boss debits and as he was obviously currently see you there is a lot of emails from people about HR issues in the media and concerns about how certain companies around am I welcome if anyone listen to this one wants to get in touch about anymore of them feel free to get much and you know it doesn't tend to point to a particularly healthy industry particularly, I'd say more in television than any other arm of it where often people are on freelance contracts and reliance.

One or two senior buses who gets to sign off work contracts that often the issue that they're still quite centralised power structures going TV compared to other bits of the media play A it is hard to justify this given their own reporting an ITN as a corporate entity probably needs to work out.

Where it stands on this is it a surprise to you that this is a topic that's that's popping up whenever anybody can have you know themselves up as the question organisation with the moral high ground that has to be reflected at every level of the organisation so I think if this leads to changes the contracts obviously that you know at the moment.

We've been told that this is just part of their boilerplate clauses you know then maybe it should be you know if they're criticising others.

Eating and then I think they need to analyse you know their own work practices, but that's the same for all of us.

We've all got to make sure that we get HR right and television doesn't have a great reputation for eight and it's really important that we do as much as we can as individuals to improve it because sometimes I feel that are they worth the paper.

They are written on a view of the had to help hold anybody to an nda.

No, I haven't tonight if it's not something that I use other than if I say I wanted to talk to a creative about a program idea that I haven't yet pitch to a channel then.

I might ask you know for somebody to sign an nda and equally I have signed nta's and those kind of circumstances if people bring ideas to me what the thing I find sing on alleged wrongdoing in the media industry is often that the NBA axis of even if it's not legally enforceable or even if we be able to find a way of publishing a story that the issue is that the source is reluctant to speak to you in the first place because they remember signing this piece of paper and a fearful of losing perhaps a settlement package so often the effect isn't so much movement of the NBA but the fact that the existence put fear into people and make some reluctant to speak out people writing.

Old which brings us to the Grandma's world of the media quiz this week, it's entitled all dogs or New Tricks so I'll give you three Media properties in the news this week you tell me if there abouts performed New Tricks or during the decidedly old dog Media guard so all dogs are new tricks three rounds of buzzing with your name.

You know the answer so catch you will say cat and Jim will say let's play number one News UK old dog or New Tricks

Jim jannard, it's a new trick and it's definitely a trick because it's an nft which is a very real and sustainable thing that the whole Industries losing its mind over nft non-fungible tokens.

What are news wanting to do with it my garden colleague Mark Sweeney revealed that they are wanting to explore how to sell nft.

How much money is flashing around.

Why can't they turn their unique son or x experiences in 10-ft is quite that will make I don't know but if you ever want to turn a JPEG of a times front page then you'll soon be able to pay a lot of money for it.

Well and straight to you for getting the number one right number to say old dog New Tricks old dog New Tricks the UK TV channel w.

Cat cat so it's going it's going through to her and why why do you think it's because I need to go through to work so previously but I guess it's description package or it would give take some money from the platform operators.

Why go through to her because it's what gym was saying you know people only prepared to pay so much and actually it's a really good channel.

It's very popular.

It has some great content and I think it can kind of builders viewers and build its revenue elsewhere through that I'm finally number 3 Alfred daily.

Jim Jim talk matrix his new podcast Radio station as I learnt about on the excellent Matt Deegan newsletter.

I think it's ok.

I think it's probably a new trick becoming an old dog because they are a Daily Podcast which assessment Shaftesbury very can a hyper-local podcast but they've turned themselves into a community Radio station and are expanding their material in and doing more is it fun to see community broadcasters doing things cat?

I think so definitely and the great thing is that if you're you know great at podcasting.

Why not? You know I think that it's some it's a really good way to expand well.

Well done the gym to add a freezer.

So you win a special Media Podcast episode 170, nft.

It's on the Block Shane and complaint from there or just a quick and it'll be fine.

Thanks.

What you up to and our website or by the iPlayer and watch what date is my Twitter feed is full of youthful rubbish about the media and some interesting stories.

Please send me tips all stories about the media appreciated my DMS are very much and thank you very much.

It's about the show on Twitter or LinkedIn you can take out a riverside.fm trial using the code Media pod of course why not become a picture of the show at patreon.com access features followers 2 episode when they drop on your podcast app of choice or by visiting pod follow the media podcast you can find my weekly newsletter about the order in the street and more about chicken.com the producer was Matt Hill with support from Phoebe Adler Ryan it was a rethink audio production.

I'll see you next week.

Some things just had some play to your day it pops out of the toaster dancing down the street to your favourite playlist wearing a sparkly boots to the shop and best of all kicking you pink scratchcard, please.

Thank you add some played a scratch card from the national lottery history big place for celebrate summer with Mamma Mia take it all began featuring that timer songs as ABBA

It's the world's funniest musical Mamma Mia at the Novello Theatre you already know you get a love it.

I never like the analogy of enjoyed being this comes down and never liked it because I will come home and I will see all my people my people live here.

I moved in the world when I came home.

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So how do you talk about a city like it's disappeared.

My name is Jessica more venesections Detroit resilience and herself in the heart of the TV show on Apple podcasts Spotify or wherever you find great stories.