Read this: Piers Morgan Returns

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts hello, this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 Piers Morgan is the signing of Rupert Murdoch's Talk TV which launches on the 25th of April that's not all his new show is also being streamed on BoxNation in the US and broadcast on Sky News Australia plus there's a column in the sun and the New York Post and a book for harpercollins all of which are owned by Rupert Murdoch all of which is a significant bet on one man's ability to hold a global audience let's find out why thinks it's money well.

Spent Piers Morgan welcome 4 Media show thank you now you and Rupert Murdoch what your separate ways where you left the news of the world and went to the Daily Mirror and he wasn't best please before all of got set up.

Did you have to clear the air know we could be a long time ago.

There was a bit of them.

I see that needs to take place after I left to go to the immediate arrival on this is a mirror understood.

That was really a sense of not wanting to know what they him but so much as I want the Daily paper and the mirror came knocking hard and I couldn't resist the the chance to go and do what I do on a Sunday paper when I'm six seven times a week.

So that was the reason I left it wasn't to do with roof.

It'll be unhappy with him in fact quite the opposite.

You know you gave me my first major breaking in the big league of the media really and it's been very nice for me to be honest to go back to him after 30 years and find is exactly the same guy that I used to work for just involved in the detail just involved in it with me.

Just as involved in the TV show and tell how does this work when two big Media beasts like you and Rupert Murdoch he's a beast by the way you are both big in your own Fields how does that happen.

How does a deal get flushed out in the hole Good Morning Britain blow up with the

Mcilveen in the free speech debate it was all raging in the UK predominantly wet around the world, but it was big in the UK Andrew Gavin to be in the UK that someone who watched it all go down and I think they've been playing with whether to do a new network and I think he thought that I was not available that it was worth having a go and so glad to get me and I was I love you scooters.

Nothing has been well documented and as soon as Rupert come knocking with his company with the global tentacles that has an ability for me to do as you said in your intro to do columns to the books to do my crime documentaries.

Are we doing as well, you know it's possible chance to go back and work for my first big mental and also to do all the things.

I love doing and another one company will be held at the suitors and I'm sure you'll negotiated.

Hi.

I'm just into how does that work do you sit down with Rupert Murdoch at a table and go right? Well? I'll take this much for doing this or if you throw this in.

I'll give you.

I'll take a bit more.

How does it?

I had my bath we had a few conversations and I think that we were basically in agreement that they kind of so that I was proposing very very well with what I wanted for the wider Network TV it so that defends free speech.

It's a show that I think will uphold the pillars of democracy in a time when Society is I think under more threat to free speech and freedom of expression then I've known it in my lifetime and you've been very critical of the way that you had to leave ITV but before that blow up as you called it.

Did you have any pressure of my TV previous to that famous walk out where you felt? You couldn't say what you want no in fact.

I'm in the fan is for me about it.

What is loving do michonne and breaking ratings records left right and centre including on the last.

I know you're only if we finally beat the BBC with the tell me what the hell we never client so I felt the same.

Exactly what we set out to do which was me leading with very strong and opinions is Anna read my co-presenter having her strong opinions and create national debate about whatever the issues.

Maybe this is ITV always been on the lever be strong in protecting my right to express my honestly held opinions right to the end.

They lost her bottle ITV chief executive says they defended you vigorously and there was no way we wouldn't absolutely not just no way we wouldn't be absolutely not just endorsing butch meaning freedom of speech and freedom of expression the why am I feeling are doing Office weather for you chose to leave says ITV because it turned out it didn't tell me this all the time but it turned out Meghan Markle have written same Dame Carolyn McCall the night before I was invited to apologise or leave.

I was told I have a public apology for effectively just believing Meghan Markle because I had display.

Oprah Winfrey many of the things she said it's been proven to be untrue so I had to apologise for what was a genuine opinion that I still hold which is don't leave her what I had to give up the so much I loved so if I give you want to try and play semantics about this.

Let me be very clear.

That's what happened and what they didn't tell me and which would have been interesting to me as part of the Debate they didn't tell me Meghan Markle had personally contacted Dame Carolyn and I believe from what I was told use phrases like we both women and we're both mothers and as if it has gone to do it I felt that the way that I was handled at the end was a shame given.

How supportive ITV have previously been to leave and they say that they defend your right to free speech speech then.

I wouldn't have been asked to apologise or leave my job.

Later came back and defending my right to free speech to some of your statements about not believing that Meghan Markle had suicidal thoughts they said we were particularly concerned about Mr Morgan's approach to such an important and serious issue and is apparent disregard for the seriousness of anyone expressing suicidal thoughts we also heard from the charity mind saying it was disappointed and turned on the people when they share this needs to be treated with dignity respect and empathy I mean probably would agree you didn't treat Meghan Markle with respect in that moment.

I just find her I'm afraid not I find very credible and my point that I'm a very forces on the show was if she claimed she went to to senior members of the royal Household and told them she was suicidal and they said she couldn't get any help because it be bad for the brand.

Let's have the names of those people and they should be fired but here we are over a year later.

There isn't a shred of evidence to support that.

To support liver to racism Express doubts about Meghan Markle and what she was saying in a way that was more respectful of the broader having suicidal thoughts even more relevantly a leading mental health charity say they're concerned about you.

Don't have any requirement back into my opinion which is I don't believe what Meghan Markle mainly because a lot of asking me which part of her Story by all to find true and be sensible that my point is no pictures of credible witness.

I think she's spray gun the royals of the bunch of wild accusations and almost none of them have been substantiated by any hard evidence and we're nearly a year later.

So I thought I believe everything she said and they're entitled to then show her the sensitivity you're talking about but if you don't believe somebody why should you feel in a democracy obliged?

Overly sensitive to claim that you don't believe I don't think you should have to because the issue in question is one that is incredibly serious and Incredibly important to me today.

I have no desire to diminish the importance of an issue like suicide or serious mental health or racism or any other issues that she touched on in the Oprah interview.

What is a journalist every Instinct in me, was is it true is what she saying true and I reached the conclusion pretty quickly that it wasn't now if she was to produce evidence that some water allegations and we're still waiting then.

I'm a revised my position and I might be more sensitive, but I'm afraid when I watched it.

I felt she was being an actress spinning yarn after to cause enormous damage to our royal family and institution of the monarchy and I wasn't going to have it and now you have a different shown on ITV or on Rupert Murdoch's Talk TV Piers

Sensor is going to assume you're hurting at the moment.

I am I noticed you said that's to un cancel those who have been cancelled so who's coming on who who can't get in the media elsewhere who were going to hear this morning Sue of for me the cancel culture issue is not about you getting on who is failing to get access to high-profile media that you would like to have on your profile to give an example.

I'd love to get JK Rowling on for example the author who has been appallingly vilify and it's been a massive attempt to cancel it's been unsuccessful because she's extremely well for now look after herself, but the abuse be meted out to her for effectively defending women's rights in a complete disgraced.

I would love to get JK Rowling on hold on a minute.

You're not sure he suggested that the JK Rowling a representative contacted a range of high-profile Media in the UK and elsewhere those iprofile, Media

The lunch last week at the River Cafe in London with a bunch of women many of whom have been cancelled University professors authors and son who have all been cancelled actually in some cases can discuss how she was treated at university, but within the context of the Media contact cancel cancel the talking in interviews about what happened to them.

It's about do people like having stop lose their jobs for having an honest he held opinion and is that right in a democratic Society and the answer is yes and other JK Rowling is wealthy enough to sustain the Barrage we have to ask ourselves is this actually what you want in a democracy.

Do we want to see University professors who hold a list of USE which in my view are not remotely contentious.

Do we want to see them driven out of their jobs by bunch of students in lost the ability to understand? What free speech made understand.

Because we continue with the example of Kathleen stock she's been to be by the BBC she's been interviewed by a range of Media so from a job, so she had to leave her job.

She was cancelled my job.

I use that particular word of course I accept that she's left but my point is that you're saying your program is serving a purpose the other media isn't it? Will look at what's happening in the world will be my take on the world, but his mission statement is to cancel cancel culture.

I want to try and create enough of a new debate that people like Kathleen stock don't bed shops.

Very good example of what I'm talking about.

I'm glad you raised it because I don't think it's right in a supposedly democratic society that University professors like her doing a fantastic job hounded out of that job for having an opinion particularly when your opinion is actually not that contentious, but that's what we've got to wear this woke Brigade one of the better phrase.

I have the power to not only drive her her job but he Meghan markle's case the queen of oakary the drive me out of my job.

Good Morning Britain these things are happening when people say cancel culture exist.

I say actually is happening all over the place open your eyes, but I might get a couple of recent examples within the media where people have come under an awful.

Lot of pressure Joe Rogan because he had covid missing his podcast with him Dave Chappelle because somebody is so I like to play Spotify stuck by Joe Rogan Dave Chappelle comedy is still on Netflix like the fact that people objected to it, but you as my both know that there are limits to free speech in Any Society Melly around I think I've got a code of yours here.

You shouldn't be ashamed of it or cancelled for having an opinion is your genuine genuine hateful bigoted stuff, but you're deciding the definition of people big world that line drawing in any scientific manner is draw.

N a common sense common sense, I will be a bedrock and my show as well.

There's not a firm line.

What's been happening, though.

Is it a small bunch of area liberal so-called liberals in my view behaving like a bunch of modern-day.

Fascist are running around deciding where that line is and that line about what you're allowed to say in public is becoming smaller and smaller case of the media three examples that you've raise yourself to starting a multimillion-dollar deal with Rupert Murdoch Joe Rogan multimillion-dollar deal with Spotify Dave Chappelle I don't know what to get some somebody's going to be paid while I'm sure all three of you have your platforms platform that I was enjoying and I was driven out of it because I wasn't allowed to hold and honestly held opinion and back in a way.

I would say what happened at Spotify Netflix is a sign that the worm is turning and it's a worm.

I really wanted to because in most cases both companies came under enormous pressure to get

Joe Rogan and Dave Chappelle and do they credit Spotify and Netflix to buy them I want to see the corporate world do more of that stand up to the movie what we see is when you do stand up to this knob quite quickly move on to somebody else and you knowledge.

This is a debate about where you draw the line, so I'm interested on your program.

Where is the line drawn, so would you have a guest on who suggest that Vaccines against covid-19 don't work.

Why because I want to expose that thought process which I think he's been extremely dangerous.

I'd want to expose them with facts.

I don't want to let me people who by the way.

There are a lot of this and they've been encouraged to think it bothered and nonsense on the internet.

I would let them set up their Store tell me where they heard this why they believe this and then damn them with facts that actually have a democracy.

I think of you let these kind of debates purely operate online.

That's where the trouble starts so I do believe in shining a light on some of these like that when I get some who preached racial hatred towards people and wanted to cause violent conduct towards any minority group no obvious limitations to me about we're free speech Leeds which has the strongest free speech in the world with the First Amendment you got one of the theatres and shout fire examples, so we know there are logical Ltd understand this little bit better.

So let's take the drug ivermectin.

Which will be well aware, I'm with some people been promoting as a treatment for covid despite their not being nasty to back that up now.

Would you put someone on a to challenge them on that is very interesting and discuss the length of Dr Sanjay Gupta CNN and it's a really interesting debate about which of these theories which have got huge following now around the world pandemic which of them have any married or not responsible to give the view the people we criticise the BBC for refusing to ever go down these roads of today because they believe they have the truth and let me know in the pandemic that scientists have changed their own Minds many times whether it be about the efficacy of masks whether it be the ability of Vaccines to prevent transmission changemyview about coronavirus many times and the concern about Joe Rogan and the case of this.

Covid but more broadly that if those pieces of information which are factually true I given a platform and I'm not adequately challenged they then just get the platform without any of the top the downside and truth and you've got on talk to you.

It's going to be on Sky News Australia and it's going to be on BoxNation the streaming system network news.

Do you think Sky News Australia and Fox News always counter claims theories that are not possible for my show and its output and I've had no pressure from any of my various employers to have any starts about anything I can do for my son won't be like getting used to spend every site the BBC presenter the BBC I think that's ridiculous thing for the meal expect you to do I wouldn't ask you to do that.

I'm not here to defend every single person.

I'm going to work with what I would defend.

All of them in my opinion have a right to their opinions and it's right that people like you and other strangers opinions, but don't we get into a problematic space you talked about the importance of show to Democracy in its own way upholding certain values, but doesn't Democracy in some ways rest on us all having facts on us all having good information so on fox Nation where you're going to be streamed Tucker Carlson also as a program documentary series which floated the idea that the storming of the capital was potentially an inside job organised by the FBI and B police insiders no evidence was offered is that helpful contribution.

So what point do you get to the stage where someone's doing something that you don't just agree with but you think I don't know if I'm comfortable being on the same the 100 people.bbc you say things you would find a foreign.

I know I don't know why I can say you look.

Are you responsible or accountable for everything that any one of your colleagues here says on in that you are in this case I watch it shows for the most hiya.

I like it so I like him.

I agree with about 75% of the stuff.

He says but I disagree with you about 25% last time I checked that's fine in a democracy.

You are allowed not agree with people that you work with and I'm sure Tucker spirited debates about gun control in America for example.

He has a very strong for your back guns.

I have an equally strong very different view about guns.

So what you're saying is I can only go work Somewhere But I've already checked that I agree with every view my point would be that's exactly what my show is going to be tackling.

This group you are you are every one of the network and I'll put it back at you a lot of people.

I love the BBC on a big fan of the BBC do you say that you can see the harpoon around the BBC newsroom and not had a conservative and there's no doubt in my mind just by the Brilliance of your corporation.

There are lots of people here who asked you to the woke and liberal side of any debate.

I would say to you.

I find that is problematic as you seem to find issues involving my colleagues at BoxNation problematic, but unless we let It Pass as you well know their head of BBC Politics a couple of years back went to be Theresa May's had a press and so on so the idea that BBC only contains people who don't concert I did say that the majority of BBC employees I know and I like a lot of them and I think you're brilliant, but let's be clear.

There's a definite liberal buys at

So I can throw it at you is my point and I can also coronavirus I can go back and see much of the BBC journalist at the start of the pandemic were advocating scientific and government position on the wall.

That masks were not suitable to fight coronavirus and compared to what we know about the efficacy of masks and you can say where you spreading disinformation back in the early stage of the pandemic.

I wouldn't make that charge because I think facts change science involves, but you get my point I do get your point and BBC News wasn't advocating that the one thing or another and any stage of the pandemic but coming back to my flat what I want understand is not that you should not go on to a network with someone you don't agree with that is the only one suggesting that what I understand is the new editioning your program as part of a reassertion of what democratic society should have free speed and get you are going to work particularly with reference to Fox

With a network with a long track record of saying things that are not rooted in also think that make you feel uncomfortable about the time.

I spend it seeing it giving you gone in the last few years even though example Russian collusion and then I can throw it back and say CNN is is the BBC is the same anyways? It's a network people look at and say everything they say must be truthful and factual the two years they span a load of old Bologna about Donald Trump being in cahoots with the Russians to fix the election it turned out to be nonsense now.

I think I understand why they went down that road.

I think the chasing ratings which one but I look at that and I think that and I didn't support that I thought I'd ask you that question a lot of things going to work for seeing that you're going to work in all these networks get things wrong all these networks have anchors presenters who says.

I don't agree with no one at Fox expect me to go in with my slightly liberal tendencies and certainly be a hard core right wing conservative talking about me about opinions.

Is there no dividing line for you on that asking you about your opinion about it is in fact That's my point and that's what I will be depending on my show so you don't have a concern with this James Murdoch Rupert Murdoch son not long after you decide to leave the family business said I think it's great news organiser is the mission really should be to introduce fact to disperse doubt not to sow doubt to obscure fact so clearly he felt entitled.

But you don't share those concerns that there are some.

Concerned about it.

I don't know I'm actually I'm very happy me working for BoxNation I'm very happy my shows going to be having an early night in America and particularly happy that nobody at Fox has had a single conversation with my tried to tell me what I should be putting on my show what opinions I should be having in fact quite the opposite.

I spent a week in America 10 days ago.

I when I'm eight nine fox Rosie and I express my honesty hold opinions the entire time and they liked it up.

There was no pressure to be conservative right-wing but no one's her pressure from me to play the kind of your all the devil you believe that and I don't think that I like the Murdoch's I've always like Rupert Murdoch admiring as a swashbuckling incredibly Ball Z mediavision that's not have you hear much about BBC the BBC has its own problems so much as you like to put your Halo is on and say a word with these people at the BBC sometimes.

Martin Bashir understand when you feel but you are a big thing with the hell.

You're a little bit like saying look we are where the BBC you're going to work for people which don't have I can understand this when I'm 12 fox last week.

I thought the standards are pretty I and I was very I'm asking the question.

I'm not telling you what the right answer is what's interesting is that you're not gonna be on Fox News you can be on BoxNation as a streaming that work.

Did you want to be on Fox News like it's it's an on-demand platform of streaming site.

It's really gathering a bit of speed momentum.

Have a lot of different voices on there a crime documentaries repair on there.

They do movies they do crime documentaries.

They have some voices doing shows it's not as a conservative perhaps Fox News in prime time is I'm not a natural conservative.

They know that they're not that hard and when you were editor of The Mirror I'm sure.

So you're a keen student of the business models that underpin drop the papers namely selling lots of adverts now.

You're stepping into a much more complex Media Arena with more complex business models.

Are you a keen student of that is less compelling and to make it newsworthy make news with the debates and interviews of I have the secondly is BoxNation as a platform to get more people to investing in the streaming service of it is and that's a commercial side of a week's time.

I've always been involved in that had to be beneficial effect on the ITV bottom line with the success and Good Morning Britain it was told me I'm popping number so I'm clean on the commercial side of these at the shows that I do.

I don't just want to be a presenter.

I want to be somebody who actually helps grow businesses this time because I'm guessing that most of the money ITV was making around Good Morning Britain was advertising presumably the the business.

Bastille via harpercollins New York Post the sun the three tv networks as well is a more complicated equation different part of the different way of running a business the main part of the part.

Where is The Daily Show and the main revenue stream for that will be from advertising so in that sense is reasonably clear-cut and I don't want to be in a position.

What advertisers feel they can't have eight eyes on my because they detect any kind of partisan political buys, so in a way that kind of bricks you thrown over the bricks you thrown about whether I was strange that territory.

I think what I said.

He was watch the show treat me isn't what I am which is my own person my own entity and I don't think I'll be anything on my so that should dissuade any Advertiser of any product from believing that I'm a fair and honest broker when it comes to the debate between people from all sides of the political divide and of course one of the reasons that fox and CNN and others are stepping into the streaming.

Is that the original business model around 24-hour cable news is under pressure not least since President Trump left the White House a lot more pressure if you're at CNN MSNBC or one of those who put their money on trump bashing 99% of the programs which I felt instead of the time having work to seeing him what he didn't do that when it was very non-partisan in non-biased in its coverage and I thought that was what its business model should be they went into full-on trump bashing to be send someone got a sterical about it and I felt that it was killing The Golden Goose and that you see the things of CNN really gone through the floor Warehouse conversely the ratings for Fox News Georgia ganttic by comparison, so remind me when I used to run the world our minds be around the mirror and it would be discharged, but we are you doing this for ratings or any ideas for circulation.

We have a job literally my job.

If your job is to serve people who want to listen to BBC

I'm happy to do that by the way, I like your own business, but will have to be reviewed as we go forward, but I do think that this notion that I should somehow be ashamed of wanting to successful with ratings or circulation with some people put out there.

I was found that laughable my job as you mentioned it.

What do you think about the BBC's business model of and don't know I don't know what you did with the other 75 shows the total disgrace and I said that loudly clearly on on Good Morning Britain regularly, and I really feel that that was a betrayal of pensioners country so I look the BBC spacing and I'm pressing his friend is going to get it from me because I am a huge to port of the BBC and they could produce amazing programming.

I recently what's Jeremy Bowen reports from Ukraine is a good friend of mine and it was astounding Clive myrie again a stand it would be brilliant journalism of the BBC it is very best as there has been with seeing it on my old colleagues, Christy Moore

To bring amazing reports to people that's these great corporations at their best.

They can the BBC continue to charge people and my kids are my three boys are in the 20s and they going to pay a licence when they already make their own personal choice about whether to pay a fee for Netflix or Amazon Prime whatever it maybe I don't think that is sustainable nothing eventually the BBC's going to have to go down that road, what would that be a sense of subscription model? Where is a voluntary payment? I think it's inevitable and I don't think I'll be there is some people BBC people seem to think I think you're just going to have to get more competitive and how to stop relying on will be compelled to pay for a licence fee when 1-hour and a completely different world to win the BBC was started and I pay for a number of subscription services from BoxNation to Netflix Amazon and I will happily pay for the BBC if I feel like I'm getting value for money with that should be my decision it should be forced anymore on the public in many ways you're an old dinosaur and that and it's time to change.

But also in some ways the BBC is a unique organisation for better off away.

Lol thank you.

Are you you're not actually that unique I mean you're just a big beast in the media world pumping out news and good programming and some bad programming day after day in that says you're not really different to anybody else.

You just think you are do you think those that if you stop it being something that is paid for universally perhaps you wrist this be coming into the BBC be coming in the marketplace which at the moment the marketplace is very skewed unfairly in my opinion against some of your competitors.

I used to work at the moment ITV and why should you get barrel out of a cash to destroy your rivals commercially very business like I applaud it and I do the same with Viber you getting all these billions in from the British Public but

Turn back to one point young people are not going to want to pay it so the clock is ticking on the BBC Sunday and how it works because I can tell you my kids.

I'm not going to want to pay your licence fee so you put your head in the sand collectively you think this is going to happen and get a very naughty song we can get ahead of the game and work out what the new business model should be for the BBC to reiterate.

I hope you get a good one.

I hope you continue to survive and thrive because I personally consume a lot of stuff not least your own brilliant.

Thank checking pieces that you do which I think you're a great public service, but do I think you should be compelled to pay money to listen to you even to you by that concern.

I don't tell me about different types of business models here in the UK who are the US you've got major reservations about the way CNN went in on Donald Trump as the ratings now show.

And the reality was though that back in 2015 2016 us news media couldn't take their eyes off if you're all the monster anybody else, do you that was a collective misjudgement, but it was quite deliberate judgement in and it wasn't just seen it was a New York time is it was all the late night show just went full on in a bashing a patron trouble worst thing ever walk the planet and said up to destroy him.

What side all filled is Alexa they don't give him all their time and help getting elected by the superstar then became almost like King Kong you know undefeatable is he charged around America having been let loose but it was the media who hated in the most in the end who were most women getting elected so it might be late behave like doctor Frankenstein and they got their comeuppance and you know what they're saying that is in the Biden presidency incredibly unpopular.

He looks sadly white pasta sell-by date in terms of functionalities as leader of the Free World and you've got Donald Trump looking the background potentially making another run getting back in a while.

So I wouldn't be surprised if that happened and if that does happen who is to blame in the end? I would say it was the erosion of trust in the media generally because the organization's CNN I think was so biased and partisan against trump that the core audience that turn to them for honest reporting of a country scene from Ukraine they simply won't getting it would turn and they stop watching you incredibly Chris about the US Media handle this I wonder how you reflect on how you handled Donald Trump are the series of scoob very high profile interviews when you look at those and you know some of the things that Donald Trump did later in his presidency around covid around the election result when I was more critical than me Donald Trump about covid.

About the election denial and about January to go back and read the columns by row.

They were in century Collins attacking him head on and directly in the I would say that people go back and watch them in full don't believe what people told you on Twitter about these interviews were frankly I didn't take a club into the room and smashing round the head was always going to be soft much more than the narrative has been allowed to say having said that he was a friend of mine and phoning since 2001 A Celebrity Apprentice show I'm gone back in many times on my show is boredom advisor.

I got to know him and his family.

This was a friend of mine who then became incredibly devices present.

I was lucky that he gave me interviews and the challenge for me was to then try and park the friendship and do an interview I do anybody else.

But the point on trying to make it is that you approach that as you wouldn't to be with any world leader I see that you treated him like a normal politician and a hard of Time by the way to go back and watch the let me know what I'm going to say the way the trump spoke about covid and the fact that he didn't accept the feet and the election will not out of the blue.

They were completely in line with Harry behaving the campaign that was completely in line with how we behave in the early years of his presidency and yet you treated him like a normal this is this is what I wrote over 120k my truck and if anybody bothered to go back and see you said I've known for 12 years and genuinely like why did you feel?

Towards a man who had already spoken with great Prejudice during the campaign who is already showing a scant regard for the truth during the campaign and during his presidency and who all in many different ways appear to be undermined the tenets of American democracy Falling Into the Trap of being the Trump's the devil for the Daily Mail website I counted about half a positive and half a critical I felt that was a further analysis and assessment in his last year of the trump presidency go back to the start of 2020 trump for a comfortable re-election.

He did forget what he said on Twitter which love it was ludicrous.

How can you get what a politician says what they say is a great party.

They are you let me explain what I meant if you park the Twitter rhetoric which was unique to trump and very polarising and you are they loved it or you hated it has no MG but you simply focus on what trumpet.

And what he did his actions I would argue that when you look in the totality with the exception of the final year.

I thought he was a catastrophe on covid.

I thought he shows no empathy over the George Floyd murder, which I thought was disgraceful.

I felt this refusal to accept the election was a disgrace and I felt the January 6th capitol riots for a direct consequence of that baby and by the way I said all that vehemently probably more strong you what you're asking if you can guess, what was going to happen.

I'm saying that I don't think that in the first 3 years trump was over the devil all the same thing.

I'd like you to think he was very effective things as well, but I don't know if you got enough credit for so I looked to him in totality this was a friend of mine is present in other States and rather than most of the mainstream Media you took 100% We hate trump and we're going to kick him up having given him all the oxygen to get a letter of the first place.

I decided to try and be fair minded are you might quibble with a few things where I said?

Support him and you don't but I can tell me what time you got something wrong.

I have him every time you got something.

I thought was right.

I said well done.

Why is that wrong for a journalist? I'm trying to ask you all.

I'm trying to understand.

I'm not passing judgement or what you did.

I'm trying to understand.

Why did you not think that there was certain things the word disqualifying the quarterfinals what qualifying as someone to be treated as a regular politician when you hear the Prejudice that he said speaking very really about a disabled person knocking them or will you when you look at some point you say he did that you say you don't pass judgement.

You say that you stick to fax you say he might disabled person.

He's always said he doesn't and pointed rather video footage remakes hand signals that you wasn't I don't know the truth about that one, but I do know is that a lot of gym.

It's just assume the worst about everything trump.

Did I never put myself in that position because I knew him that's better.

Sometimes for example example on talking about a lot of people went crackers when he said that NATO was getting obsolete because of all the countries weren't paying that you was right the right response of the media should have been is right.

Go away.

Look at the fact.

They're not paying enough of the Jews actually Trumps going to point trump in the end on Isis for example.

You know if you trample TV look at my record it for years.

I didn't get a warranty.

Where is destroyed by Isis he got rid of Baghdad is Isis no longer, so what is to get more credit? And it's a saint Barack Obama they don't know that a bomber deported over 3 million.

People playing what about the right to the point though when I saw a clear difference between the way the Liberal scheme Media treated Obama and the way that they treated that's the way trump sound energy discussion to have but I'm just trying to try once more Donald Trump got a particular issue with the truth.

He says things which are true all and the the charge would be from some within American journalism certainly the new can't handle him as a regular politician because his operation and and therefore regular interviews is much more problematic than might be with other Politician's.

Did you watch my interview? And what did you think your interviews now?

I gave him a soft time asking the right questions think I didn't push him on the right as I'm discovering now.

There's always a limit to the questions you can ask him.

There's always a timeframe your operating in but yeah, you were being you saying you know isn't it amazing in your 70s and the most effective use of Twitter and everything they were what's wrong with that does not anything wrong with that but I'm saying they were parts that comfortable never parts that were on come on this one absolutely the when someone says things essentially creates a parallel reality how journalist how does the news media handle and become completely unhinged about him and you don't have a situation.

Where are seeing in and others and the campaign about Russia collusion and when it turns out to be untrue not a single one and apologises and Italy spent the entire time saying the reason we have to go so hard after trump.

It's because he's so loose with the truth.

And when is mainstream media companies go so hard of the trump on a complete load of nonsense about Russia collusion then nobody thinks that it is always and discuss the story here on the go and what the media didn't didn't get that.

I would would like him to be let me ask you something else.

You're making a show for UK audience of Us audience in an Australian orders.

They don't care about the same thing with demonstrating that is we talked about the presidency.

How do you how do you think every day? There are lots of stories which resonate around the world my gut feeling is Twitter in particular has made the world a place in terms of debate you see the trending topics of the same almost every country and everyday.

I look at the stuff in the news nothing.

What that would resonate all round the world that most things doing that.

Ukraine weather is Meghan and Harry's antiques whether it's Donald Trump make a comeback whether it's the health of Joe Biden all these things I think working all these countries.

That's the better people are making on me.

I believe I have the profile and patch the forceful personality to make people understand why this matters to them wherever they are and what are there in Sydney London maybe and that's what I want to do a genuine global show which actually Focuses on issues, which are relevant everywhere and underpinning.

It will have not underpinning that supportive of it is you're close to 8 million followers you very active I was looking just in the couple of hours before you arrive.

Here you eat on a range of subjects and it's almost like you've created your own tabloid in the form of a Twitter account you're doing and how do you spot you do politics sometimes.

It's serious sometimes.

It's funny.

How much of that is this conscious when you around the mirror or the news? I mean I think what you're trying to do is I love being at the centre of the

I love expressing my opinions I like the industry of build-up around that whether it's on social media whether it's the books.

I do whether it's the television I produce I think how much more periodicity I would people through social media have been voted to share opinions of the have that debate but what has happened which I think is a shame is that we become very tribal we've gone back with me 2000 years to a tribalism which in the end.

I think it's so destructive Society would you get up in the morning and take away yesterday? I treated quite a lot about how much I'd like to change man.

So I should do a little more on politics.

You think no birds in the trees treating with the idea of a big following now.

You must be aware of its potency of course that's in part contributed the deal you just said that's not happening by accident surely know but I would.

You're brilliant one and I'm sure you'll see the reaction when I do because I've got so many followers so in a way you want to give me a car so I do want to see that.

I am I can I can say what I want.

It's a bit a free platform.

I never say things.

I don't mean in the moment doesn't know can't change my mind and I'm aware of the power of it and you got and how do you work so if you have a column to do and you're looking for inspiration of a particular place as you go to have a list of subjects u r w w w change from the old days about Colin Brown both my deal with the sun and Neil Post is very fluid.

I do one column for both of the papers a week, but I can choose any moment of any day to do a column.

It will go online within an hour from me sending it to them and it will go in the following morning print that never used to obviously the case before internet came along but also even five years ago you would never

Put a print column online before it in the paper roll beginning to realise you can have your cake and eat it about content like that and what happened to you have the idea that I really want to make this point how long does it take you to ride to local tyre whatever it may be but you've got to be honest.

I think you can pass any kind of comment like and a objective is you like but you can only be objective if you have facts so yeah, I'm with myself when I've been on the receiving end of media attention and I've had a few firestorms over the years.

I've always remember the things you should know me the most and was most educational really about this whole process was my column is whacking me if I deserved it and they were based in the whack on a fact.

I didn't like it.

I thought it was really unfair if it was based on something.

I knew wasn't true.

I was thinking you get the fact right you can be a strongly a penis is like trying to get it right, but you have someone who fact checks it.

Do you have an attitude goes pay as you can't say that I do that but when it goes to the paper they have somebody who panics it there and then looks a bit and tidied up and substance someone so you're not your own little Lone Wolf have I got a very good track record ever been sued over and over and over 700 columns now him last 8 years never had a legal if you have any of them because of my training as a daily newspaper editor.

I'm very aware aware that line is only Galaxy I was aware of it on television.

I have one half of communion against me in five years and it wasn't the infamous Meghan Markle I think the although I operate with a very opinionated style.

I do like think the light basted on hard fact and your new show so if I will make you a video I could tell that to a video on this and my script it but it's not going anywhere in less my editor says ok, this is

And did you have a we're just not doing this? You shouldn't be doing this as you're not doing this right balance of power bank.

I think I've taken people to work with my show that they want me for many years.

I'm on other shows you am I so runner the executive producer when he done by Nelson she want with me and CNN she work with open before that play Good Morning Britain she's running this show at the director want me for 5-years.

Good Morning Britain the senior editor the same people who know me they know how operate they know that I covered it.

I hope so serious gymnastic chops home don3 for decades of working on the Frontline of journalism and with my age of wisdom baps is the factors wrong there's no upside and getting something wrong when I get things wrong as an editor to kill me because if a fact is wrong.

It doesn't matter what else you do around.

It's just wrong.

And I think that I know the BBC operates under that to their credit, but I think that my social put on that the real Hellfire will be Unleashed internally with my team and they know this if we just get a soppy Farah what you mentioned fire, then.

We do this quote which I suppose it from you recently.

I like arguing with people are like controversy.

I like being at the centre of a Firestorm and giving your profile.

You really know what it feels like to be in the middle of the Firestorm more than most.

What is that when you experience it when your phone is going crazy? What does that emotionally in uncomfortable? But just like what you said you liked it.

So I'm just kind of what the things could be uncomfortable but also in another way quite exciting and quite a challenge and they will resolve and they also I think provide opportunity for fighting back.

You know what I don't Firestorm over leaving Good Morning Britain for a while a few hours.

I was getting.

And then when I came out and made a very strong speech on the steps of my house the following morning for some reason that really resonated with people in the mood change like that and when I walked around the next few weeks.

I was going I had almost universal support from the British Public I wasn't getting it for charity for the meeting and I work generally supportive but the public boot into my my basic philosophy which is all in an opinion.

I don't understand it as a personal experience you've talked about signing autographs for yourself when you were a teenager how you always wanted to be the most important journalist the journalist, who is in the thick.of.it to do that.

I just admit that so intense for you that here you are your 50s still pursuing.

It's still needing it.

I love it.

I love the attention.

I love a drama.

I love the challenge.

I love covering using Evening News addict.

Migrate addiction in life is news.

I love know what's going on.

I love talking about it.

I love sharing information with people and I like the daily punch up of the media.

I think it's a fantastic vibrant industry full of great people and some not so great people but collective hoover wonderful free presents country and that's why I actually the one thing I would say that again my departure from ITV and ended up here.

I was struck by the fact that almost every paper whether it's the Telegraph the Times the Daily Mail the sun the mirror they all did leader articles in their papers defending am I right to free speech and I thought that was a really big moment because some of those babies have no reason to be nice to me whatsoever, but they understand what was actually going on here and wipers important and you see you like a punch of course in punch ups people people get hurt when you were talking about Harry and Meghan a couple of years ago when you're asked to you think you should Govern temp temple things you said absolutely sure.

I know recently you've called Harry a poo face sanctimonious virtue-signalling hypocrites the temporary doesn't seem to be entirely that is untrue not question the quote years ago wasn't that you can stop saying things that were on true because I want to criticise him.

There's a tonal issue here isn't that you're still cycle to the BBC changed, but of course lots of your colleagues have recently left Wi-Fi speakers as I've got the other Express an opinion Emily maitlis and Jon Sopel little it because actually the fed up and not the other same honestly held opinion when I meet BBC journalist the number of them to me exactly that about Prince Harry and it when I hear them on TV that having to do the Old Nicholas Witchell 6th line to the royal family and to him and I might why so what you really think this is watching this is like one of the enticement for my show will be that I will say what

You think you might not like it and you may not agree with me, but the difference between me and see you and your show and disc operation the BBC which I love the difference is you're not allowed to and you be quiet, but if you treating what you thought about any of these issues, you'll be fired.

So my point is I don't have that problem.

I don't feel rough earlier and I'm already asking you about whether you to be expected to express an opinion.

No one I don't think is suggesting that I'm asking a question about tone.

You were saying where am I think you said earlier than we've ever been or you said something on the lines of societies particularly angry that serve your purpose to some degree because opinion-based call Anisa gonna drive in that environment.

Do you think you're just making the most of that moment or do you think in some ways? You're helping to create it probably part of the noise except that that's not a legitimate criticism, but when you take that mean you say you can't say what you really think of radomir Putin for example me.

Where's the line?

The privacy device always have with journalists from the broadsheet present from the BBC whatever where they would constantly harangue tabloids about invasion of privacy and turn on the television and they will be these cameras in war zones beaming in on Mother's as they find The Dying or dead children without a moments thought about that invasion of privacy and I never understand why this wasn't so glad he obviously hypocritical that actually news organisations constantly invade people's privacy at the worst moments in the lies and that they also feel they can criticise tabloids with him parent and intrusive really depends what you what your definition of privacy is I can't think personally of a more invasive moment and some of the scenes I seen from you example and you also more in some cases networks will get permission not always my know that so what is Privacy what is intrusive and I used to constantly while.

I don't cover the story which the BBC always used to do or secondly, don't show these images that if you really feel that strong me about someone's personal privacy don't be so intrusive yourself and how the BBC and lots of other news organizations cover serious story such as the one you reference.

There is one that I know you keep the following part because you've been involved in this.

It's been interested me to your career a member and I started back on BBC in 2001 just after 9:11 you had it in the mirror.

You did this quite public piven where you said we're making the the paper more serious we're going to do more of the paper to 9/11 and when the war came along you were supposed it then obviously your time at the mirror came to an end and you went off to do some other things America's Got Talent and I also noticed at the beginning of the pandemic started to really engage with government policy.

I think at the time you said one of the good things.

I hope that comes out of it the pandemic.

Is that we all calm down a bit including myself about stuff that actually know it.

Insignificant people fighting endless culture Wars over stuff that I just felt was so unimportant.

Where's that feeling at the moment? You are right back in time, but the culture Wars Are Raging whether I like it or not and my my argument is going to be on the so it's nice to try and bring some perspective and common sense to me too babes some of the stuff is going as completely and we all know it's insane.

You know the issue for example transgender athletes with this American swimmer who was very unsuccessful as a male summer now destroying women's record is obviously completely and saying but doesn't BBC feel comfortable about me even talking about it in this kind of environment and then maybe but it's been covered the number of different types of music is right, but my point about it is at these culture Wars Are Raging that is part of it and someone has to fight for.

The common Sense and for freedom and freedom of speech and for rights of people and I want to be that person.

I've always done that by the way my whole gelatin great.

I've always thought the civil rights and women's rights and gay rights and trans rights.

It doesn't mean that you can't raise serious concerns when active his take things too far as I was reading back over different things you said it's striking the on some issues.

You have moved around a bit on some people for example.

I was reading your old GQ interview with Boris Johnson when you when you talk about not being an imagine the moment we have nuclear war with someone in the BBC newscaster smoking Johnson with his hand hovering over the big red button and obviously we're not all that rather present.

We're not in a nuclear war but we're in the situation talking about in a way that we have before and you're treating very much in favour of the West militarily confronting.

Yeah, so that's quite a shift isn't it to you why what is a shift in the you were saying you're

Boris Johnson absolutely who actually shouldn't even be surviving party on a factor when you consider how the West Was wants to put with conventional weapons should call it black about nuclear weapons got any intention of using Lethal Weapon what I do know is about dictators from history that if you let them do what he's doing raise Ukraine of the grand master murder and genocide and attack maternity hospitals refugees are leaving at trying to flee the the terrible seen you get away with that then actually all you do is Golden forget even worse about UK politics at the beginning of the pandemic you became one of the most high-profile journalist to be taking on the government ministers and what they were doing.

Surprised that you very quickly assumed that role, will you surprised the other journalist who are more day today involved in politics will not doing a journalist were off their game and it came to change a government over the pandemic is very clear to me from what was going on with the pandemic and our Handling of it that we were Walkley under prepared as a country whether it was about the by the equipment for the until like a testing down all these issues.

We were completely unprepared and it was on this government and non-government and it's a journalist job in that environment and that in that situation to go after a go and try and in a way in by having no debates for study with the day long making them make better policy and I've had government ministers can see it to me they made better policy after screaming matches are on Good Morning Britain you are actually doing goodbye do that but then what do you make?

Partygate, what do you make of the way the Daily Mail and the sun have responded to Johnson's predicament which has been largely to be supportive the cupboards partygate these papers, but they decided I don't agree and I write as a sun in a personally.

I think you should go.

I think he's a first serving Prime Minister to break the law on it and it looks like you've been doing it repeatedly and it plays right witnesses, so I might guess is it will be done sooner rather later probably as a result of partygate meet surging inflation, but I don't have any problem with the male or the sun having their view the whole point of a free press and a democracy isn't the Guardian will say one thing the Daily Mail say another the sun and mirror will say different things that should be celebrate.

We're not we're not living in Russia or North Korea will have to say the same thing where x pressing you got to go and see her in a minute.

I don't want to make you late for your rehearsals.

You've got this brand new show coming up blank slate when you started planning for and you've talked to the past the fact the media show just a few little few years ago about how journalists could sometimes be constrained by how they always done things are not seeing opportunities.

So what do you see in the show that you can do that others aren't stepping into others aren't doing in the the media Arena I just think I'm in a pretty unique place.

You know you got my Twitter following on the 8 million followers.

That's more than any other journalists.

I know by Miles I have a global voice actually from a lot of shows I've done before CNN 150 places play three times a day when I worked there for 4 years even the talent shows of head all around the world the Good Morning Britain clip sometimes got 50 million views around the world so I have.

Fortunate I have a big for the Global profile that sounds and I believe the time has come for a full-on global Assault on cancel culture and I want to be the figurehead for that is he talking to you about the last week and he was on Fantastic Four me too, but he was razorsharp full of energy full of Enthusiasm for the show last year was a big huge resonance for what I stand for another person.

I wonder if you've been talking to and when is GB news and didn't work out but he also had woke culture to use his phrase in his sights but for him.

It was in his own words not not his proudest moment.

Do you think there any lessons to learn from the GB news early? I think that was pretty obvious to everybody and it's certainly was obvious to and he left over the same I think.

GB news now evolved into a fully washable network has some talented people they covered it from Conservatives right wing vent in the main certainly won't be in prime time.

We're not turning right wing so it's a different perspective that we don't have a part of vampires on what I'm doing but I think that I wouldn't have wanted to start the way GB news.

Did I will start to feel like I'm in some crypt.

You know with all the production values being that low.

They have improved it and I've got better and good luck to everybody but I think when people see my show when it launches on Monday they will see extremely high production values and I'll see that maybe the key difference from having read all sorts of stories from your tabloid past.

How can give you are nicking stories of the Sunday Times and lots of other things which means you need to make note to buy you must be feeling very competitive about this who your arrival.

Who are the people that you want to be around 8 when I'm going to be a ring you've got BBC News you've got Sky News you got GB news their immediate obvious child, but I also have rivals in Australia I forget Sky News Australia and I'm going to have rivals in Norway in America well.

I'm not on conventional rolling cable news on a streaming platform.

So that's a different entity over there really I think I'm a realistic about starting a brand new network these things take time they take patience when I went to Good Morning Britain with a 14% audience share when I left where the 36% audience is now back Under-20 so you know I've got a proven track record.

I think of growing these kind of shows by doing it my way.

I think there's enough people out there in the UK Australia and the US to share my frustration about the way society has been going to have another tuning and we build the audience so we give them what they want and I produce a lively provocative hopefully intelligent.

Challenging so we celebrate democracy and free speech and opinions from across all perspective.

I think we'll have a winner in the end.

I've got to last questions one.

I think I can get the answer to the other not so much.

Do you know that's a big moment for you? And what's your definition of success if you came back on the media showing to 34 years that will do.

I will do you mean it the numbers aren't right then the show me to calculate what numbers represent successful.

We go it's going to take time to grow it because of the different calibrations and ways there are around the world, but I think they were all gonna know whether we have a hit show on her hands and within a few months if people are tuning in bigger numbers if we're growing it if it would dominating the media Zeitgeist in a way that I used to a good Morning Britain if would be coming the centre of debate in three continents then I think I have done my job.

It will be very exciting.

I'll be back to the beach for a while, but I'd love to be watching but I'm going to be on here on BBC News so would have to destroy you with that.

Thank you very much indeed.

We appreciate you making time.

I'll let you get Persil not to be.